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Zenji

there's nothing wrong with asking for evidence, or even better evidence.....there is something wrong with squelching the pursuit of evidence. There is also something very wrong with refusing to be swayed by evidence, in favor of random faith-based beliefs.

The church may have made galileo's life difficult, but it lost in a big, big way from the whole issue. In my mind, it is largely because of the refusal to accept heliocentric theories, despite the clear and eventually incontrovertible evidence, that scientifically and rationally minded people turned against the church in such large numbers in the following centuries. The church took a stand, declaring that they had the right answer from faith and that opposing explanations were 'wrong' despite all appearances to the contrary, and that they must not be allowed to flourish. But humans are reasonable animals, and it was increasingly clear to more and more people that the church was just wrong on the issue...and if they were wrong, how could reasonable people support them? There was a choice that had to be made: follow the dictates of reason, or follow the dictates of the church, no matter how unreasonable. Is it any surprise that millions chose reason? It is, to me, more surprising that so many did not.

I see evolution as essentially a repetition of the same phenomenon. The church is going to insist contrary to all reason that they know the answer, when it is increasingly obvious that they simply don't....and it will hurt them, badly, in the long run. If reasonable people are restrained from accepting the church by the church's clear dedication to fantasy, it cannot be good for them in any way. In my mind, refusal to embrace science is the number one issue leading to the church's decline and the rise of atheism in the the modern world, followed somewhat by it's opposition to Marxism. (although to be fair, Marx opposed the church first, but he did so in part because...he saw his ideology as *scientific*. )

Dr. C.

What you say has some wisdom, Zenji, and I guess I would agree that, to some extent, the Catholic Church is in opposition to Science. But, there are many Catholic scientists, including evolutionary biologists. And, in fact, the Church does not preach strict creationism:
Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms...
from: http://www.catholic.com/library/Adam_Eve_and_Evolution.asp
Now, mind you, I'm not out here defending the Church (though I did in my youth). Its just that the attack by the Know Nothings is so virulent, we need all the allies we can get. Let the Church demand that Catholics believe that the "soul" is created de novo with each birth (as we have discussed before, this is, I guess, the crux of the aborthion argument). But, the overwhelming scientific evidence of biological evolution has been accepted by the Church and we should use this as an argument against the crazies that want to deny it.
By the way, Pharyngula
http://pharyngula.org/
has great stuff on this battle.

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