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» Good posting at jack * on atheism from Changing Places
j a c k *: My Life as Nothing... Good post, and good expression of the progression from nothing to skeptic to atheist. I personally try to delink my own spirituality from any religious worldview, and my standard response to... [Read More]

Comments

jimBOB

"Much as we might like to think that some beliefs are true, our strongest wishful thinking is brushed away like so many cobwebs when confronted with objective evidence."

Oh, if only it were so! To True Believers, evidence against their faith is a "test" of that faith, not a reason to abandon it. The motive for the passionate denunciations of evolutionary theory, and for clinging to ridiculousness like Intelligent Design, is that they realize their faith is threatened by troublesome facts.

Personally, I can't quite make the leap to atheism (in my definition atheism is the positive rejection of the notion of God's existence), since, as you noticed in your SF writing, the concept of God is nonfalsifiable. However, in practical terms a scientifically possible God becomes both implausible and irrelevant. So if atheists think God doesn't exists, and agnostics think God's existence can't be proven, what do you call someone who thinks God's existence is irrelevant?

jack*

The point is that they recognize that evidence is a threat. The scientific battle over facts is largely over, but the political battle over having to face the facts is still raging.

Unless you are a theist -- that is someone who accepts or espouses a deity or deities, implicitly or explicitly -- you are an atheist. That's just the definition of the word. However many people make finer distinctions between atheists who reject gods, and atheists who are unsure, and atheists who don't care or who have never heard of the idea of God. The last category I would call a natural atheist, or perhaps a dispasionate atheist.

I generally reject the concept of agnostic as a third category. Theists would like to group nonbelievers that way since it bolsters their argument that atheism is a belief system equivalent to theism. It's not. Someone who is uncertain might be best called an agnostic atheist.

Gaianne

1) What could constitute a scientific proof of God? Nothing, given then God is not a scientific concept. But it might be worth noting none other than Carl Sagan pushing the limits of this in his novel Contact when his main character (played by Jodie Foster in the movie) starts finding low-probability anomalies in very far out digits in the decimal expansion of pi. (The expansion for pi, in any base, though deterministic, has the statistics of a random sequence, as far as it has been studied.)

A mind warp, for sure, as pi is not built into the structure of the physical world but the mathematical world, a system of logically consistent constucts that somehow provide useful models and approximations to physical phenomena.

And yet, even if it were true--(it could be decided in the positive, but not the negative)--it would prove nothing.

2) God might be very useful in modern science. In Newton's mechanics, once the initial conditions are set--and God might have set the initial conditions--the laws of dynamics--presumably created by God but perhaps not so created--decide everything and God is not needed further at all. How different Quantum Mechanics! Every moment zillions of decisions have to be made all over the universe, randomly, sure, but how? By whom? Einstein is quoted as saying he could not believe that God would play dice with the universe: What an opportunity he missed not to consider that She might be very busy making all these decisions, and very carefully too, so that the outcomes would never differ noticeably from chance! ;)

3) Choosing to be rational may be a practical decision, but it is not a rational one: There is no rational way to choose to be rational--before you can decide to do anything rationally, you must accept the use of reason to make the decision. The sensible (but non-rational) person has faith in reason, and then decides to go ahead and use it for other decisions. And then feels vindicated when the results turn out well. A distinction must be made between the non-rational--that which is outside the scope of reason--and the irrational--that which contradicts reason. Many things are useful to believe (or disbelieve) even though proof is not possible. Trouble mainly comes with religious people like our modern fundies who persist in believing that which is plainly false.

4) Christians tend to have a very limited view of religion--for them Christianity itself forms the ideal model of any possible religion. So it does not occur to them what an anomalous thing it is to have your religion defined by a creed--a set of beliefs. (Most religions are defined by practice.) Since one of the functions of Christian religious beliefs is to serve as in-group/out-group markers, the irrationality (not non-rationality, but irrationality) of a religious creed is not a drawback, but an asset: No one holds irrational Christian beliefs by accident. One has to be a devout follower of the sect to actually believe the crap, and moreover everyone can see plainly that you are.

5) The rise of religion in this context is the abandonment of the principle "all men are created equal" and its replacement by the principle "we are better than you, and are going to stomp you out without compunction." That it is anti-democratic goes without saying, less obviously, it is anti-American in a fundamental sense.

--Gaianne

jack*

There is no need to "accept the use" of reason to make decisions. Reason as opposed to what? One does not need "faith" in reason any more than one needs faith in gravity to keep from floating away. To suggest that there is some non-rational form of knowledge is nonsense.

To the extent that religions make truth claims -- that God answers prayers, for example -- they are testable and therefore part of science. And people have been doing these experiments for millenia; the problem is that they all continue to come up negative. So formal religion has retreated and we're left with an all-powerful being who cannot be seen to be acting in any way. How is that different from non-existence? Believers will never agree up front what would constitute a negative result, thus science has no information for them.

Gaianne

Even in as rational an activity as a chess game reason is sometimes inappropriate. Sometimes you can look into the tree of possibilities and see that some are plainly bad, and one is plainly best, and choose your next move rationally. But suppose you cannot see that deeply--that no move is plainly best as far as you can look. It doesn't help to have a theory that says if you could look deeply enough, you could rationally choose your best move, because in your own case you can't. So then the sensible thing to do is to use a non-rational combination of experience and intuition.

There are some activities for which rationality is an absolute hindrance--such as some aspects of music, art, or dance. If I am dancing and I am thinking about the physical laws of motion, I am surely dancing badly--and I can count on my audience to agree. If I am foolishly imagining that my weight is suspended effortlessly from a chord stretching out of the sky, I will, in fact, be dancing much better.

Whether nonsense or not, most forms of knowledge are non-rational. (Which is certainly not an argument for the existence of God.)

When you say that formal religion has retreated, you can only mean Chistianity. Non-Christian religions may not have retreated, nor had any reason to, since the all-powerful materialistic Deity implied by the statement has no provenance. You are arguing against a sort of Deity that even many Christians would agree does not exist.

loyopp

Jack, I was struck by your description of your experience in seventh grade. None, and I mean "none", of my friends growing up went to church on a regular basis, and only a few even went beyond the secular ritual of showing up at church once a year on Christmas. (The only seriously religious kids I knew were Jewish, actually.) So I was met with puzzlement when I said I had to go to church Sunday morning and couldn't come out to play. However, most kids could say they were "Lutheran" or "Methodist" or what have you, and I frankly think "Nothing" would have been a better answer in many cases. (Ironically, the church I attended was not recognized by the local bishop, so my answer had to be "Catholic, sort of".) Anyhow, I guess we all feel different in seventh grade for one reason or another, no? (A light comment in a heavy thread ... I'll take a pass on the heaviness.)

jack*

loyopp: Nice insight from what must be other side of the same experience. Obviously many of the issues involved are personal and relative.

Gaianne: This is a subject for a more in-depth discussion, but it's wrong to equate reason with "thinking hard." This is sometimes called the Toolbox Fallacy -- that reason is just one tool in a box with many others. In fact there are no other tools. All knowledge, even the way your legs know how to do a graceful foxtrot, is based in rationality even if it does not involve deep thinking.

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